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IA: Can you introduce yourself and describe what it is that you do?

TF: Yes I can. I am Tamsin Fitzgerald and I am the Artistic Director of 2Faced Dance Company. In that capacity, I'm also choreographer, teacher, mentor, facilitator, cleaner, room booker, accountant and everything else in between.

IA: What is your relationship to endings?

TF: I always struggle to finish the end of my pieces. I always have a bit of an issue with that and so from a dance capacity, there's a thing there that happens in the studio. Endings can sometimes be the start of a new beginning too.

IA: Why do you struggle to end a choreography?
 

TF: Because it's often the thing that the audience remembers the most and I always put pressure on myself to get it right. I want to get it right. So I keep changing my mind.
 

IA: Are we talking potential multiple endings?

TF: Yes, that could happen. You can end a piece of work in so many different ways and at different times. I'm a little bit indecisive, so deciding which is the right ending takes me a bit of time.

IA: Once you've made the decision to end it in a certain way, is there any regret or wish you’d done it differently?

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TF: In Lucid Grounds I wasn't happy with the ending even in the tech rehearsal. In the last 10 minutes of the tech I got the dancers to face a different direction and then I felt happier. But I still wasn't happy happy until it had been shared and performed for a few weeks.
 

IA: What's it like in that moment in the tech? Is it something in your body? Is it in your eyes? What didn't feel right with that piece and ending at that time?
 

TF: It didn't feel right and I guess a feeling is my emotional response to it. Dramaturgically, it didn't feel right. It's a little bit like when you've waited for a really long time for the next album to come out from your favourite pop star and every song is great, but you get to the last song and it's slightly disappointing. It's a bit like that. If you think about a film or a TV show it’s often the ending (or the beginning) that you remember. You don't really remember the middle bit as much.

IA: When you're conceiving a piece and when you're choreographing it, when do you begin to think about the end?

TF: Before I've even started it. I'll often think about what the emotional journey or narrative journey is depending on what I want an audience to go on.

IA: What would you say is the ending that you've created that you're most satisfied with out of all the works you've ever created?

TF: That's quite a big question. I really liked the ending with What The Moon Saw, because it was the lighting that had the ending rather than the dance. It was a bit like the Coca-Cola lorry advert. It gave you that same feeling of Christmas is coming and the boy got into bed and the lights turned all these colours on the set, one at a time to the music. It was lovely. Yeah. That was a complete ending, almost with a bow on it.
 

IA: And then, the inverse. What ending are you most unhappy with?

TF: So many really. There’s a lot of endings that I don't particularly like, and I'm never really happy with. I think it's easier with an obvious narrative, like in children's work, where you have a clearer and stronger structure, rather than a conceptual work. It's harder in a conceptual work to get the ending right.

IA: Outside of your own work, what is the most satisfying ending that you've encountered?

TF: I like an ending where it's neat and tidy. I don't really like messy endings. I find that if I'm watching a film, that's two or three hours long, and you're really invested in it and you get to the end and it doesn't answer a certain questions, I find that a bit frustrating because why have I spent the last two hours watching this?

IA: Is there anything that comes to mind that has given you that recently?

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TF: I don't think I've ever thought about it in that way. I guess if I had watched the EastEnders Christmas special, when it's on a cliffhanger, but I didn't watch it this year.
 

IA: Grant Mitchell is coming back temporarily for the 40th anniversary from Portugal.

TF: You see, they're classic cliffhanger endings. You can do a cliff hanger ending if you've got a part two, but in dance you can't wait 18 months for part two waiting for Arts Council England to give you the next grant.

IA: Talking of Arts Council England. 2Faced were a part of the National Portfolio Organisation for many, many years and in the last round, they decided not to make 2Faced an NPO. What has that been like?
 

TF: It has been tricky and I think it's a very tricky situation to navigate, particularly because we’re in a climate where the world is in a tricky place. If you look at NPOs anyway, they're struggling, let alone someone that doesn't have NPO status. We had spent 12 years building and creating this full-time dance company that's all year round and we were encouraged to have a building and kit that building out through an ACE capital grant. At no point through that process, was there any kind of discussion about not having further support. When everything has been pointing in this one direction and you're encouraged to go in that direction from a funder, to then remove that support is very difficult. You're not talking about one artist, you're talking about potential job losses for 10 people.

 

We're not freelancers, we're all employed. Clearly it's difficult financially and you have to replace that money somehow. As an organisation we're very, very – tight is the wrong word - financially responsible. We don't waste money on things. We don't buy people drinks or have hospitality or big parties or spend money on VIP events. We take public money - that you've got through Lottery - very responsibly. It wasn't like we could find many places to cut money. It's very difficult to be more commercial, which is what we were advised to be, in a world that isn't particularly built for being commercial. I can think of other dance organisations that are subsidised by ACE that could be commercial or are commercial and could have lost their NPO funding and it probably wouldn't have impacted them in the same way. ACE are underfunded themselves and if you have a staff that are looking after loads and loads of organisations, then they probably don't have the time to know the inside out and back to front. I think it makes you question yourself, but one of the main problems is that it’s made other people question us as an organisation, which we’ve never had before.

IA: What do you mean by that?

TF: People assume that something must have happened, gone bad or we've done something wrong. Even now people say what did Arts Council England say? What was the reason for losing your funding? "We’re less representative of contemporary England than other organisations." People look at me like, what does that mean? I guess the question is, we still don't really know what that means. I remember when we became an NPO, I remember someone saying, welcome to the club and I feel like we're not part of that club anymore, but we're no longer independent because we've been an NPO and not part of the NPO club, so we're not really part of any part of the sector. That's how it feels. You know the vegetable that's come out the wrong shape that nobody wants. The wonky veg, that's what it feels like.

IA: There's been - in the last few months - so many previous NPOs who were weren’t successful in the 2023-2026 round, who have closed their doors and ceased trading because they haven't been able to continue operating. How have you managed it? The company has grown, you've increased your dancers and there's other visible markers of success.

TF: We had healthy reserves at the start of losing NPO. In our first year of NPO loss ACE actually funded us more than when we were an NPO. We knuckled down, applied for more money from trust and foundations. We’ve been successful, not on all of them, but we’ve had some success. We've had to find money from other places and other channels because touring is no longer viable. Someone else asked me that the other day, how we survived, and I don't know. We're quite tenacious, I've always been entrepreneurial and we work hard. It's not just about us or me, it's about the community and Herefordshire and what would be missing if we were to shut and close our doors?
 

IA: You mentioned the end of dance touring – and I could do a whole other interview series on that - can you talk about a little more about the end of touring in England for dance?

TF: I don't think it's just dance. I think it's new writing, new creations of things. It's really sad. It's really sad to think...I'm not sure I consider taking a show to three places as a tour. Even if people are saying that's the new way of touring. You can dress it up however you want, but in my head it's got to be at least eight to ten dates. I think it's sad for communities, I think it's sad for the next generation, because they won't get to see diverse work. I think it's sad that all they'll grow up on is tribute acts, musical theatre and other things. I think that's sad for humanity, it sounds very dramatic, but I do think that. I think it's sad that artists can't share the work and it actually makes art more elitist. It means that only people that can afford to will create work and it will stop companies going out and experiencing different cultures. One of the things about wanting to have a professional dance company here, based in Hereford, is I wanted to be able to show people that you could have different types of experiences and different types of work in a rural city. By us going out and touring, nationally and internationally, meeting different people and experiencing different, cultures and different art - all of that richness is brought back into Hereford.

If you say it's all about your local community, none of that happens, you don't get differing cultures mixing, you just get separation. Which leads to disharmony and sadness. We're obviously governed by what the funders tell us we can spend our money on. Whether that is coming from government or whether that is coming from Arts Council, I don't know, but the hopefulness that I had of Let's Create has not materialised.

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IA: We’re halfway through the ACE strategy from 2020 to 2030. There was a huge pandemic in that period, but touring just doesn't feel viable.

TF: Touring isn’t viable unless you've got subsidy. Even if you were to go into a non-theatrical setting and tour your own infrastructure of lighting and sound equipment and run a box office. I don't think it’s a sustainable model. Has anyone tried it? Is anyone trying new things or are people just being quite safe?

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IA: The company is celebrating its 25th anniversary, a quarter of a century in existence. What does that feel like that? That's a major milestone.

TF: I don't really think about it. I don't feel like we’ve really celebrated it yet or anyone has really said congratulations. I don't know what's supposed to happen when you reach 25. It's not like being 21 years old and having a big party. Maybe it should be. I think the world is occupied with other things. I think it feels like a big achievement. If I look at all the companies that have started and have closed, I don't think I thought this would be what I would do. I think you're always finding something new, something interesting and something different to do. Nothing really stays the same. I think there's something in experience that we should value more in this country in the arts. I think we've stopped valuing experience.

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IA: Out of those 25 years, give me three personal Tamsin highlights. What are the three things that resonate with you?

TF: Oh wow. Gosh. Three things. That's quite hard to pick out. Performing across the world has been quite cool, 29 countries is pretty impressive where we've been to or our work has been. I'll never forget the post show talk that we had in Budapest. Everyone was sitting on the stairs, there's red wine, it was the days when you could smoke in a theatre. It was completely sold out, that's why everyone's sitting on the stairs. Hundreds of people there to to see our work. I won't forget that. Going to Haiti in 2011 was remarkable and emotional. There's something in seeing all the young people who've come through our community program and seeing what they've done and how much confidence that's given them.

IA: What was the show in Budapest?

TF: That was with 7.0. A triple bill called In The Dust. The Tom Dale piece Subterranean, Freddie Opoku-Addaie's piece with the pig mask and then 7.0. I think it was because it really felt meaningful, the work had an impact and people really enjoyed it.

IA: The opposite of endings, beginnings. What are you like at the beginning of a project or the beginning of creating a new thing. What is the next beginning for you?

TF: I'm like an excitable child or like just now when my cat just scratched the sofa. I get quite excited at beginnings, I’m hopeful, curious. I love beginnings. I'm just starting to create a new work, we’ve haven't really had day one, so it’s day minus 0.5 and we’re about to go into day one next week. Proper day one. That's exciting. And it’s the creation of a mid-scale work, which then hopefully tours with nine dancers.

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IA: When was the last time you had nine dancers?

TF: I’ve never had nine dancers, I’ve only ever had eight and that was in 2006 in our early days.

IA: In your 25th year, working with the most dancers you've ever worked with, working towards a mid-scale tour. What is that like for you as an artistic director and a choreographer?

TF: One of the things as an NPO on standstill funding was that it meant you could never really increase things like the number of dancers. One of the things someone said to me once we lost our NPO was “you might find you've got freedom to do whatever you want now.” It will be nice to create with more people because it will give me more scope and more opportunity to do things that I haven’t been able to do before. You can only ever really do that when you're working with a youth company, CAT course or a university degree course. It'll be nice to see what happens from that and what comes from that. I won't have nine from day one, I've had to do it in a staged way. Because we work in a collaborative and devised way everyone is excited. Because we're a full-time company, we have a bit more of a luxury of time, than if I was a freelance company. It’s not like I've got to get to minute five by day four.
 

IA: How do you consider your own archive? How have you documented the things that the company has done and what do you think your legacy will be?

TF: I don't really think, maybe other people do, but I don't really think of archiving. I think we think we must get a full-length version of this work so a tour bookers can sell it and then that becomes an archive. So we have a video and photographs. We’re doing a retrospective in March of the last 25 years and we're gonna look back at all the photographs that we've got and pull out some gems. I always think of archive as something over 100 years, maybe not 25. History is important. I think it's important to acknowledge it. Legacy. I don't know. There's many dance companies that have been influenced or inspired by their time at 2Faced or by our work. That's a legacy and that's already happening. We're old enough to look back and dancers careers are very short. As a male dancer, if you start at 15, that is actually 25 years, if you think about it, that’s your career in dance. We've had one cycle, so let’s see what the next cycle brings?
 

IA: Who are some of the people who have been in 2Faced in some way? For those who don't know the history of 2Faced, who are some of the people that are operating now that started or began their life with the company.

TF: Chris Knight who runs Salt. He's got his own company. Johnny Autin - spent some time with us as a former rehearsal director and dancer has his own company. Dan Lowenstein who's a filmmaker and works across dance with the likes of Northern Ballet and Birmingham Royal Ballet. There’s many more and people who have come across the organisation in different ways. Molly Jones who was in our youth company is now a producer at Sadler’s Wells. Michelle - a circus artist, creating her own work up in Scotland - she came through our Youth Company. Dylan, who's now in Motionhouse came from our youth company. Then you've got the people that have been commissioned to create work such as Alleyne Dance - we commissioned their first outdoor work and who we've mentored, by myself and others through The Bench programme. 

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One of the things that we've been looking at is who are the 25 people that we should take a portrait of individually or collectively that have influenced our work over the last 25 years or going into the future. We've commissioned a photographer who's going to do that and so we need to find who those people are. Do you look at who was our first apprentice dancer? Do you look at the women that came through The Bench programme? Do you look at a young person who's training with us now, who might be the future of the dance world? That'll be part of an exhibition in March at our studios. We're working with a great photographer called Emma Drabble who works a lot with veterans. One of the questions we’re asking is how do we create movement in a still thing like photography?

IA: Is there anything to do with endings or dance that you've not spoken about so far that you would like to speak about?

TF: Just to say that I don't think endings are...I don't think I think like that. I don't think in beginnings and ends. I think about how this is the start of the new project or isn't it sad a show's finishing, but I don't spend too long thinking about it. I don't reflect on that necessarily. 

IA: Some people mark the endings of a project, they may buy a thing, they may go and do a thing with a little ritual.

TF: If it's someone's first performance with the company I would mark that with a card. But after that, I don't mark it. If we weren't a full-time company and you had dancers who were there for six weeks, then maybe. We might have a drink to celebrate opening night together, we might go out together at the end, but we don’t mark it in a significant way. We don't get too emotional about it. Because there's always something next and time doesn't stop. Endings are often the start of something new, so, there's no full stop, it's more of a comma.

IA: We're in the end times. It's literally the end of the world. If you could have a last dance with 2 people, who would they be and why are you choosing them?

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TF: Oh my days. I’d definitely want one of those people to be someone that could dance really bloody well. And then someone else, who I could just have a stupid fun dance with. That's a good question. I'd want to dance salsa with somebody, because I like doing salsa. So whoever is the world's leading salsa dancer at that particular point. That'd be great and I think that'd be a lot of fun. Then the other one would have to be someone like - one of my girlfriends or maybe my dad. My dad's quite a funny dancer, he’s like some old school rave music to have fun with. It's gotta be someone who has no inhibitions. Either him or my friend Lisa, dancing cheesy to Steps - but that would be a really sad way to go, to Steps. I'd want a full-on dance moment and then a full-on stupid moment.

IA: Any last comments?

TF: I think I don't think about it. If you were to ask me these questions in a week, the answers might be very different. I don't think I've ever contemplated this that deeply. I've thought, isn't it sad that this person has left 2Faced and that relationship has come to an end. But then, those relationships continue but in a different way. So it's never really the end. It depends whether you think the end is a finite thing or whether it's the start of a new phase.

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